I’ve read some Dark Souls reviews lately, with great interest. In case you didn’t know, Dark Souls is a game which isn’t exactly like most games in the industry today. Because while most games today are designed to be easy and casual, and more or less solely based on instant gratification, Dark Souls is the total opposite. It’s difficult. Extremely difficult.
I hardly think I will play Dark Souls, just as I haven’t played its predecessor Demon’s souls. I think I will just become frustrated rather than amused by the tough challenge. But despite that I’m glad it was made and I hope it will become a real success – just to prove that there’s a market for a variety of games in the gaming industry. It doesn’t have to be about instant gratification, it’s not the ultimate key to success.
But with games like Dark Souls you immediately start ask yourself how hard a game should be. Hattrick is a casual game, and its difficulty level is far from Dark Souls. But we sometimes get to hear that we should make Hattrick easier (pretty much along the line with instant gratification), and more or less every time we add or change something in the game we get to hear that it’s getting more and more complex.
So, is Hattrick more complex today compared to what it was back in 97? Probably. Is Hattrick a better game now compared to back then? Definitely.
And while one can naturally say that each addition or change we’ve done from the start in 97 have made the game more complex, it’s not a black or white world. Sure, there is more to think about and take into consideration in today’s Hattrick than it was back then. But on the other hand, the level of information about how the game works is much higher now and in many other ways it’s easier for new users to get the hang of the game today.
I like games that are easy to play, but still provide a challenge. A real challenge, which is not solely related to the amount of time you spend. I have the same philosophy for Hattrick. I want it to be easy to play and understand the game (and I’ve nothing against making things even easier), but I want it to leave a question in the head of the manager when he shuts his computer down. Should I play this player or that one, should I play this or that formation, should I buy this player on the transfer and for what cost? Something to think about on the bus, in the shower or while watching telly.
Because of this it’s important for me that there are choices to make, as otherwise there are no questions for the manager to think about. But instead of just adding new choices we should strive to minimize the number of options where you in reality only have one option (one option is so superior compared to the alternatives that it becomes the only option), and add a real question/choice instead.
With loyalty we do just that (among other things), we add a question to the game: Do you want to sell this youth player and cash in right away, or do you want to keep him knowing that he’ll always perform a little bit more?
Loyalty in itself is not designed to make Hattrick easier to play. It’s one more thing to think about after all. But from my point of view it makes Hattrick more interesting to play, more realistic – and more challenging. Because when all comes around I’m confident we all want to be challenged.
well, tjecken, i can’t remember when was the last time i took a bus, but in the shower and in front of TV i *definitely* think about hattrick!! 😉
Well, i miss all the missleading info in the manual as in the old days now days the developers are telling us way to much about the things when new things are introduced.
Who here dosnt remember when we all bought clowns because we thought they increase team spirit etc.
All those small features are missing now days IMO.
The _misleading_ “features” are missing? Really?
@ Tjecken: Back in the days HT had something that few online games ever had but now it’s kind of lost. Only the name and memories remind us of the good old days.
This doesn’t mean today’s HT sucks but that it had lost something… important. I still enjoy the game (after 6 years) like I used to in the first months.
Most of the information/knowledge has been found through community discoveries and experience, so it’s true that it in the beginning was a part of where you had to find out how the game worked. But since most of the things are known today, we either have to change things (for the sake of changing then) so that it becomes unknown – and the community again have to find out how it works (and then repeat that a couple of times). Or we let Hattrick evolve as well, into a game where you know the information and it’s then up to how you make use of that information. For me the latter is much more fun and challenging, as a gamer and as a designer.
Well, i miss all the missleading info in the manual as in the old days now days the developers are telling us way to much about the things when new things are introduced.
________________________________________________________________
Man, I totally aggree with you. Those were some nice days…
And btw, I received my team with a clown and of course I was bragging with him :))
Having played Dark Souls, I’ll say that I’m glad that it was made as well. Making a game easier has ruined a lot of games, such as World of Warcraft.
I very much agree. Part of the fun of playing HT is thinking about it – planning a long-term strategy, considering the line-up for the weekend, considering the option to sell/buy or not and so on… (unlike Mikan above, I do take a bus on a daily basis, so it’s a great way to spend the time 😉 )
The idea to make us chose one way or another is very much needed and I think the new stuff about loyalty will do HT well 🙂 I’m really waiting to see how the new things about the staff will be like and hope that we will be “forced” to make some decisions there too – but I know I have to wait a bit longer to find out 🙂
Some “Dark Soul” has turned off HT servers?
Seems a switch tried to be difficult. Extremely difficult.
It´s something that Sid Meier (a gaming genius, IMHO) called “interesting decisions”, in Civ 4 manual. He describes it almost exactly the same way you did it (I wonder if you read it). The message is the same: if one option is always so superior compared to others, you don´t really have an option there, just something else to annoy the player. Good to know you guys think this way.
I am really happy to read this. I give you all the support for this game concept. Never succumb to those trying to make the game trivial or about being online when the player auctions ends.
The ultimate goal is a game like Fermat’s last theorem: Any 10 years old understand it but 99% of the mathematicians cannot solve it.
Hattrick is an intuitiv game, it´s easy to start but endless in details. That gives the game a short as well as a long term aspekt. That´s I love it for.
I don’t think Hattrick as a game is solely based on ‘difficulty’ which the system defines… the point is that in hattrick, it’s also your opponent and with every match or in a League it’s those opponents you have to beat…
the ‘difficulty’ on hattrick is, or rather should be based on that of being ‘better’ than those opponents..
One frustrating thing that seems to annoy quite a lote of users at one time or the other is that Hattrick as a game just isn’t build to ‘gratify’ all… for every ‘winner’ there is a loser… and looking at the leaugues people play in, only one team will be champion or sometimes will promote as second, with6 or 7 teams without a prize and sometimes between 2 and 4 times having to drop a League…
Furtehr more, it can be quote frutsrating for mangers that the amount of ‘control’ you can have on your succes can seem quote small, especially facing opponents who are also skilled in the game it is almost impossible to find that ‘one working tactical trick’ which decides the match
Thank you very much for this post. I gives a good idea of how you guys want hattrick to be. And it seems you want to develop exactly the game that I want to play !
Is it the game Hattrick or is it Football itself which has the fascination ? I think part of the appeal is that there is nothing in HT which does not appear in “real life” If a game can be “solved” like a mathematical theorem then it will eventually lose it’s attraction and players will move on to solve another puzzle.
Keep up the good work,Tjecken, and introduce new features where you can but don’t stray from the fascination of football itself where most understand the game but how many become world champions?
you got a good point. i always think about hattrick. Wherever I am. Transit, library, anywhere. It is my favorite game on the internet. I think yuo guys did a good job making this game. It is addictive.In fact, I have to go on twice a day. I have only not when on once because I was busy. Great Game though.
Twice a day? I only go on once a day. Trouble is it lasts all day (permalogin)
lol
The changes mean that something is growing, evolving. So it should be…
But there are no changes in premiums for promotion, for a place in the league or for the top scorer… Is it not time to make changes and give greater rewards to stimulate competition in the league?
Cheers:)
I think one of the key things that keep players fascinated with a game are the “new” things introduced which takes a lot of time to figure out. Like FF7 materias… i remember those were so shinny… and i couldnt tell which was gonna be the next one, plus i had to level up each of them!
They didnt necessarily introduced new stuff, they just increased the amount of things a players had to choose from. In hattrick, there is a already a “most” optimazed way to deal with things… call it an easy way with “standar” skills a player need for every position. Once a player figure out its best strategy, it is done, though it depends on every team you should play against, it is still flexible if you have enough money.
Also, I think you should increase the amount of teams who can promote every season, or make a league re-arrange, every season. So even if a player couldnt promote they can take a new challenge and dont feel stuck in there like forever.
I did think about Hattrick in the train today. The question was “should I play a forward defensive at all times or after I take the lead”? It’s great you gave me this choice
I´m curious why you thought that making the game more complex should happen in the aspect of chosing which player to set in the line up. Looking at the Dutch question forums (and I guess that counts for every questions forum), you´ll already see a lot of questions which player would be the best on the pitch. The answers you´ll get are -almost always- not based on mathematician experience, but on gut feeling. But the best indicator on this subject might be that Hattrick Organizer is the only tool that more experienced players are using, to estimate their ratings. If the individual attribution to the ratings would not already be so complex, there would probably be more tools available to estimate these ratings…
Furthermore: the rating predictor you introduced did make choices like that easier. Including the loyalty bonus in it, makes chosing even less complicated.
I think it would have been better if it was constructed in a way like the organisation events are being handled. First of all because with the current introduction you can easily see the outcome in the rating predictor of the match form. Furthermore, because an extra event like that would introduce a little extra random factor (and although many people complain about HT´s randomness, it´s also what makes the game great). Third of all: the reason why loyalty has been requested a lot in the past, is because of the so called “divine trick”; by adding only one level skill due to loyalty you won´t be able to harm the “divine trick”. Last but not least, it would also resemble the real world better, as a new player will not only play worse himself normally, but will also have an effect on the players around him.
May I ask if the creative team has considered introducing a loyalty factor working somewhat like the organisation events? With a penalty for all match sectors or -even better- only a penalty to the match sectors that the player contributes to? And if it had been considered, why was the current version considered to be better?
I think you’re misreading me a bit here, I don’t want to make the game more complex, that’s not a design goal. But it’s naturally an effect of adding stuff like this. The reason for why we added it on a personal level rather than on a team level is because I believe it’s more logical and much easier to grasp if you do it like we did. It’s a very direct way of doing it, and that way it’s easier for the feature to get any real effect on the gaming behaviour.
You express very well a large part of what makes the game worthwile and intriguing, you have to take decisions.
OTOH, there is another point: We as users dont become overwhelmed with detail and are not often forced to micro manage, the game is based on abstractions, and abstractions that work. I have the feeling that what is rewarded for a manager in RL is also rewarded for one in HT and thats good.
I do have some issues, though, with the level of complexity rising: Take e.g. the youth adcademy, here you offer the choice of the “abstract” (old) system of paying employees that then do the job for you or alternatively start micromanaging.
As hard working people sometimes dont find the time to spend many hours fine tuning stuff in a game, I have always cherished having the possibility to use the old youth system, again as it works more or less as it would in RL, and that is enough for me as other parts have me fully occupied (yes, I think at work about HT a lot… 🙂 ).
Now, I would like to see this choice (of delegating work vs. micro managing) in other sections of the game as well, I think it would attract a wider spectrum of players if you have both options.
For example I could imagine delegating the buying and selling of players (with stop-loss orders, etc), the renovation of trainers and even the lineup and tactics choice (all optional, of course) by just setting the goals to achieve and the COA and have my employees do the rest.
It would not take out the decision making, but it would free one of the nitty-gritty work in the basements of the club.
Just an idea,
Rattler
Sorry my english is not as good as I want.
I think like “rattler”, when you can choose to make everything by yourself or set on ai more people will like the game. It is not the difficulty that makes a game good, its number of choices the player will have.
In RL there are days you have enough time to make the micromanaging and there are also weeks you can only take a short look into the game. When you have enough time it will more motivating to do many things by yourself, but if you have no time its frustrating to have no chance. The challenge for you to keep hattrick alive (i read about the usernumbers) will be to find the balance of ai and micromanagement, to can say the game is easy for beginners and also difficult enough for advanced players if they want to.
a suebian
Yes.
Definitely
Love Hattrick and have played Dark Souls for hours and hours (I don’t even want to admit how much!) I suspect there is a connection there in the way each of these games appeals to me.
I am definitely okay with “difficult” and “complex”. But when I play a game I want to enjoy the actual playing of the game, the very process itself. My primary goal is not to wade through a game and “beat” it. If I don’t enjoy the gameplay/process, I’ll just quit playing. If I do enjoy the gameplay process, I will play long term and really delve into it. Both Hattrick and Dark Souls work in this way for me.
I just don’t know that Hattrick can be made appealing to the player who wants a quick “win”. The trick might be to find more of the players who want an engaging, long-term game. Now where to find and how to engage those type players is the challenge.